Son's dog has troubling history BEFORE pancreatitis attack...Please help!

[Sher.Fla]

I have started a new thread about my son's dog (chi, 9yrs old), because I have found out information that I didn't know was happening. The dog had an attack of pancreatitus about 7 weeks ago and is still not doing very well. The major complaint seems to be diarrhea and the lethargy and general not feeling good that goes with it.

However, I just found out that my son got this dog from someone that didn't want to deal with the dog's "pooping problems" anymore. So this dog has always had problems in this dept. Here is an email that I got from my son this morning...:
*********
Mom,
I agree, diet is important... even before she had the pancreatitus attack... she still had "irritable bowel syndrome" or whatever you want to call it, she had diarrhea ....never saw her poop even once in the last few years that are normal solid dog turds....

I don't think I've gotten 8 hours of sleep in the last 3 years... maybe for the days when she was at the vet and a few times when it was so bad she slept downstairs.... she'd be up 2 or 3 times every night to go out and poop... like every two or 3 hours... I'd be up at 11p(if I was in bed), up at 1-2am, then up at 4-5am... to help her make it outside to poop....
*********

I had no idea he was dealing with this sort of illness with his dog. I never dreamed he had this much patience to tell you the truth...LOL... Bless his heart!...

Now here is the email I got yesterday about how she is doing since the pancreatitus diagnosis...:

***************
mom,
well, we are still experimenting, and it's been up and down with Daisy... sometimes more solid poop, then later very liquidy... there didn't seem to be any rhyme or reason....Did notice though after going thru the nightafter no food since like 7pm that her poop would be more solid in the early part of the day and then as we gave her the medicine, it seemed like by the afternoon her poop would be more liquidy by the evening... the other night was particularly bad... she could barely make it off our bed(she sleeps in our bed) before she had to poop... and she, yes, she decided by herself, she was going to stay downstairs that night....she pooped about 3 or 4 times during the night(pretty typical), but did not make it outside....the next day she felt awful... she would not get off the couch except to poop and didn't want to eat.... I wouldn't want to eat either if my rear end was on fire.... till I gave her a pregnezone mixed into one of her treats which she loves(milk bone treat)... then her appetite started coming back----the pregnezone gives her more appetite I was told by the vet.

Today we decided to try something different....

We just gave her the pregnezone and none of the anti inflamatory... so far, it seems to be having a good effect, it's after 6 and she just pooped and it was softserve--- that's good for her!
I think the anti inflammatory medicine was making it worse.... just a hypothesis at this point, but after tomorrow I will know a little better....

she is still on the halo and shredded sara lee chicken.... that seems to be ok, but I think I'd like to get her to eat some dry halo mixed with the wet to dry to reduce the moisture content in her poop, but I don't want to try too many things at the same time.

that's it for now!

*****************

You can see how hard he is trying to figure this stuff out for himself...I don't think his vet is much help at all... Do any of you have ANY idea what is wrong with this dog? Are there any diseases that have chronic diarrhea as their symptoms? Is this just a dog that desperately needs a special diet? We really don't want to give up on this dog, so any ideas, suggestions, opinions would so much be appreciated...

Thank you sooo much for any replies....

[IRescue452]

She's a chihuahua, so maybe he could get her a child's playpen with a roll of sod to poop on at night since it sounds like she's well housebroken and doesn't want to poop inside. The only thing I can think of is getting her an x-ray of her insides if she hasn't already. It could be something physical like an internal hernia

[Karen]

Where is he? It definitely sounds like something long-term, and could even be something as "simple" as food allergies. Have him read ingredients, and page strict attention to what is in what he's feeding her, and see what difference that makes in her stool consistency. Some dogs cannot tolerate grains, some have specific protein allergies, like King2005's pretty Digi, and where is he located? If he was up here, I'd recommend he talk to folks at Tufts Veterinary School, but if he's down there, I don't know what Universities have the best vet programs.

[king2005]

It could be a food allergy... Now the fan part is trying to figure out what.

Here are a couple simple recipe he can try, BUT he has to ensure she gets NO treats or any people food, as this can help him figure out what food works best for her tummy.

For 1 whole day feed:
well cooked White Rice

If her poops are not liquid, do it for a 2nd day to see how the poops look.
KEEP NOTES

Next-
For 1 whole day feed:
cooked chicken (her body might be too weak/ill for raw meats at this time) - white or brown is fine, but NO BONES, just the meat.

If her poops are not liquid, do it for a 2nd day to see how the poops look.
KEEP NOTES

Next-
For 1 whole day feed:
cooked fish (a cheap white fish, no salmon), not from a can, but fresh or frozen fish flesh, NO BONES

If her poops are not liquid, do it for a 2nd day to see how the poops look.
KEEP NOTES

Next-
For 1 whole day feed:
cooked lean beef (hamburger)

If her poops are not liquid, do it for a 2nd day to see how the poops look.
KEEP NOTES

Next-
For 1 whole day feed:
cooked eggs (scrambled) in the microwave, or a non-stick pot, NO butter or oil, its has to be just the Eggs. If possible, grind up the egg shell as finely as possible & mix it into the raw egg before cooking. This will give her the calcium she is missing while trying these different foods.

If her poops are not liquid, do it for a 2nd day to see how the poops look.
KEEP NOTES



I would like him to try them in THIS order.
Chicken
Egg+shell
If she does well, then forget the rest for a while. If her poops look good or almost normal then stick with the above 2 ingredients for a few weeks, as her poor digestive system needs a HUGE break.

What he can also do if she is doing well with the chicken & egg, is to add cooked chicken liver & heart into the mix. Because she is a tiny breed, I would give her about 3 peas worth of chicken organ everyday.


If she is doing really well on the Chicken, egg+shell, & chicken organs, then here is a recipe he can do.

If he has a blender or a food processor (best), then he can make the below recipe.

Add cooked chicken, & cooked egg into the food processor (ratio 3:1), blend into goo, add water to help blend. You want it as thick you can get it. Take it out & set aside. Now blend just the cooked chicken organs, add a little water to help blend if needed, keep it as thick as possible. Take it out & set aside. Cook carrots, and green beans in a microwave until they are soft (or steam them.. DO NOT BOIL). Blend them in to a paste, add a little water if needed, I usually don't need to add water to the cooked veggies.

Get some Ice Cube Trays. Fill the trays (do not over flow) with the meat mixture & place into the freezer (the thawed mixture can last 3-4 days, freezing it will allow him to make a larger batch of food so he's not doing this every couple of days or wasting any food. Do the same for the cooked organ meat & the veggies.

Once frozen he can take the cubes out of the tray & store them in separate freezer bag so they don't get freezer burn. Mark the bags so he knows what is what, do not mix all 3 ingredients into the same bag.


As to how much to feed is the harder part.. but he will figure it out. But for starters lets start with 4 cubes of thawed meat per/meal. Make sure the raw Organ meat is on the very top of the food, or served before the meat, as the dog needs that organ meat in its system. Take 1 veggie cube & mix it into 4 meat cubes (everything must be thawed). Let the dog eat until its full. If the dog is still hungry after 4 cubes of meat, give it more to eat.

Now the feeding habits need to be changed. So lets start slowly, but semi aggressive. I'm going to assume the dog usually has food 24/7, or many times through out the day. That needs to stop asap. Feed the dog once every 12hrs. Let it eat as much as it wants/meal. Give the dog 60 mins to finish its meal. After 60 mins take the food away if the dog isn't currently eating it. Put it into the fridge for later use.

Keep the dog on that timely schedule for a week. Then change it from 60 mins to 30 mins & keep it at 30 mins from now on. Remember to never remove the food if the dog is currently eating it, wait until it walks away to take the food away.

Also NO TREATS!!! The dog shouldn't have access to ANY store bought treats ever again (donate what your son has to a shelter or a friend). My reasoning is because there is so much toxic junk in those treats, it might cause more issues with the dog. He can make homemade treats, once the dog is doing well in a few months.. But the treats should be real foods like cooked chicken, or cooked or raw carrots.


IF the dog is thriving for a month, then get your son to test one of the other tester ingredients for 1 day & see how the dog does. I recommend trying the fish & ignoring the rest. If the dog does well with the fish, then he can use the above recipe I gave & do the same with the fish. So one day the dog can have chicken meat & the next fish fish. Turkey & Duck should also be fine if the dog does well on the chicken.


Lets zip ahead to 6 or 8 months of good doggie poops & a healthy active pup. Because of the Pancreatitis, the dog shouldn't be eating cooked meats, as its hard to digest. Your son can use up the rest of the cooked meats & just use raw. Chicken drums have lots of meat on them & they are cheap. Give the raw chicken bone, as its very good for the dog to eat (cooked bones can be deadly so NEVER give cooked bones). You can buy small frozen fish in bags. cut them up in to a meal size portion & let the dog chow down. The cooked veggies are still important, as raw cannot be digested properly or at all). Also switch the cooked organs to raw organs.

Here is a good tip. Feed the raw meats in a locked Kennel or the bathtub. This will make clean up easier for your son. Also remember that the bacteria on the raw meats don't hurt dogs, but it can harm humans, so your son needs to make sure that he washes his hands well after handling raw meats.

When washing the kennel or the tub after a raw meal, use bleach & water.. Other chemicals can be hard on dogs & since the dog is most likely going to lick the kennel or tub clean you don't want them ingesting bad chemicals.


Hope that helps
PS. I do this for my dog, as shes deathly allergic to red meats, dairy, & shellfish. Right now shes on cooked meat (raw organ), but soon she'll be on raw meat as shes gone nearly 1yr of no deadly reactions, & hasn't had any tiny reactions to anything in the past 6 months. Nothing but healthy poops, normal looking skin, & no puking. Her digestive tract should now be fully repaired (it was bleeding BAD about 1yr ago) so she can actually handle raw meats (well the bacteria on/in them). I can't wait until we move to raw.. its sooooooo much cheaper & the healthiest food for a dog.. Remember dogs are not humans, they need raw meats.

Hopefully that helps

OH, remember that if the dog does poor on chicken, use whatever meat the dog does well on, with the above recipe I have given.

[king2005]

Where is he? It definitely sounds like something long-term, and could even be something as "simple" as food allergies. Have him read ingredients, and page strict attention to what is in what he's feeding her, and see what difference that makes in her stool consistency. Some dogs cannot tolerate grains, some have specific protein allergies, like King2005's pretty Digi, and where is he located? If he was up here, I'd recommend he talk to folks at Tufts Veterinary School, but if he's down there, I don't know what Universities have the best vet programs.

It took me soooooo long to write my message that I didn't see this.. Thank you for the lovely comment on Digi You should see her in person, as her fur flow is just sooo stunning! Walking her downtown Toronto is a nightmare as she draws HUGE crowds of people & I get trapped at corners for 30+ mins... I'm always late when I take her with me LOL

[Sher.Fla]

He is in south central PA, I am in FL... I think he mentioned in one of his letters that he had her on Hills Presc.
Diet Food, but she couldn't digest the rice and vomited it back up. I have no idea why the thought/knew it was the rice in this that she couldn't digest... maybe the vet assumed?.... I always thought rice was pretty digestible, but I suppose it is possible.

Also, this dog recovered from Lymes disease,too, if that means anything.I don't know when that was, but only that it was in her past.

Thank you so much for your replies. I will make sure he sees these. We are both grateful for your help...

[Karen]

Okay, if rice might be an issue, try sweet potato. Again, food allergies are tricky to figure out, but a relief when you know what to avoid.

[king2005]

He is in south central PA, I am in FL... I think he mentioned in one of his letters that he had her on Hills Presc.
Diet Food, but she couldn't digest the rice and vomited it back up. I have no idea why the thought/knew it was the rice in this that she couldn't digest... maybe the vet assumed?.... I always thought rice was pretty digestible, but I suppose it is possible.

Also, this dog recovered from Lymes disease,too, if that means anything.I don't know when that was, but only that it was in her past.

Thank you so much for your replies. I will make sure he sees these. We are both grateful for your help...

It could be the rice, but you wont know for sure until you feed it in an isolated environment. Hills is a low quality food & it has so much junk in it!!!
My vet handed me a few cans of Hills & told me to feed it to Digi. I looked at the ingredients & basically laughed.. ok I was more pissed off then anything, but I KNOW vets are not trained in this sort of thing, so I couldn't blame him 100%.. But in just about every single flavour of Hills, there is Dairy or some sort of Beef.
When dogs have allergies the most common foods are corn, grains, beef, & dairy. Of course there are other foods too, but those are the most common.

[Catlady711]

Has your son's dog ever been tested for parasites with a fecal test? The first thing coming to my mind is Coccidia.

http://www.animalhealthcare.com/hand...occidiosis.htm
Most pets that are infected with coccidia do not have diarrhea or other clinical signs. When the coccidia oocysts are found in the stool of a pet without diarrhea, they are generally considered a transient, insignificant finding. However, in puppies and debilitated adult pets, they may cause severe, watery diarrhea, dehydration, abdominal distress, and vomiting. In severe cases, death may occur.


However animals can have IBS like people do. Not really sure on treatment for those as I don't see enough of those at work to really remember what the dr's do for them.

If it was my dog I'd be inclined to go for a second opinon, fecal test, full blood work up, and possibly x-rays.

Sounds like the dog wasn't well cared for prior to your son getting it and may have some underlying issues that are still plaguing the dog.

Hope things work out ok, and the vet figures out what the problem is.

[Sher.Fla]

I don't know if she had a fecal test. I would hope so. I asked him that but haven't heard back yet. I think too he should get a second opinion. I know this vet did blood work, but I think it just had to do with the pancreatitus.

btw... would you cook/microwave sweet potatoes for the dog to eat? could you use canned if there was nothing added to them? do you feed them by itself? i have not had any experience with special diets..

Thanks again...

[Karen]

I'd just boil or microwave it, and mash it up with a fork. It is important NOT to add anything. Then, if she tolerates that, for example, he can add some plain chicken, and see how that goes. The point of an elimination diet is trying individual things at a time to rule things out. A day or so without protein from meat won't kill her, and it will give her something she may digest, see how it goes.

[king2005]

I'd just boil or microwave it, and mash it up with a fork. It is important NOT to add anything. Then, if she tolerates that, for example, he can add some plain chicken, and see how that goes. The point of an elimination diet is trying individual things at a time to rule things out. A day or so without protein from meat won't kill her, and it will give her something she may digest, see how it goes.

Boiling veggies isn't really good, a lot of the nutrition goes into the water & thus is almost pointless to feed it to the dog (or us).. its more wasteful then anything. Microwave, or steam it to keep the nutritional value at its highest.

The quickest way to cook sweet potato in the microwave is to cut it into small chunks. Cook it for 5 mins & if its still hard, zap it for another 5 until soft.

Also make sure to NEVER microwave any food in plastic. Even that so-called microwavable safe plastic.. it's all lies. That just means there is less plastic toxins being released into the food.. key word "less"... Also make sure she is eating from metal or ceramic dog bowls. She might be allergic to plastic, like cats are.


But for now I would just leave the Sweet Potato off the menu, because if you give her too much it can cause loose stools. So for just the time being I would keep it on hold.. But once the dog is having good stools, then ass small amounts of her to her meals along with the other cooked veggies. Sweet Potato is good for them

You can use many many many different veggies. Just remember, that her poops WILL be a much different colour, so don't worry if they have some green, or orange in them (Digi's are red from beets), thats just the unprocessed veggies. Even when the veggies are cooked, they are still not able to digest it 100%, but they get what they need

Onions, Grapes & Raisins are toxic to dogs. Apple seeds are bad too, & the skins of several citrus fruits.. I simply don't feed Digi Citrus foods period.. If shes getting any fruits, its usually just a Banana... I like to give her Blue Berries, strawberries, & Raspberries when they are in season. I'll sit at my desk eating away & every 3-4 I have I give her one, but she is a wee bit larger then a chi-chi lol Sometimes berries can cause the runs, so its best to avoid them until she is doing much better.

[king2005]

Almost forgot... When feeding Egg Shells, don't be alarmed if you see some in the poop. It just means there was too much & the body didn't need it. So put a little less into her food. If you see a little here & a little there, then thats just fine. I have what I like to call Calcium Meals. Its a whole meal of nothing but egg & egg shells. I also do egg & lots of chicken bone. When I use bone, her poops look white-ish... I don't do that often (once a month), as Digi has no bones to chew to get added calcium due to her red meat allergies.


That reminds me.. while your testing different foods, put all the beef/pork/etc bones away, until you know its not beef bothering her.. Pork is too fatty "in My Opinion" & should be avoided from a regular diet. No harm with it being a treat once in a while, but not a staple. But for now, no bones. Only non-food item toys.

OH, ask him if the dog likes to eat sticks!!
Digi use to eat sooooooo many sticks, & leaves that it would give her the runs all the time (too much fiber) LOL

[MonicanHonda]

Just wanting to add a few things. Digi did great with the intro to a raw/homecooked diet. But I know for a raw diet, eventually you are going to have to get a red meat in there because, frankly, white meat does not have enough nutrients. Dogs fed an all chicken raw diet have extreme deficiencies in certain areas. If the pup does in fact have an allergy, it is probably to beef. I like the menu that Digi has laid out for you. It is a great way to find what the dog is allergic to. Dogs who have allergies usually do great on venison... so once you figure things out, I think I would try out this type of meat also.

As to pork, it's generally a very good food that makes up a large portion of most raw fed dogs I know. BUT, we do cut off a LOT of fat before feeding it. But not all, because dogs do not get their energy from carbs like we do, they get their energy from FAT! So, the dog could in fact be allergic to rice (or corn because SD is made of mostly corn) because dogs aren't SUPPOSED to eat corn. They are carnivores. Grains and corn are the number one allergies dogs have. Their bodies cannot digest these carbs. That is shown from the start of the mouth. We have amylase in our mouths and dogs do not. Their bodies have to work much harder to digest grains (making the pancreas work harder!!!) to digest these items of food.

SD is a really bad food honestly. The number one ingredient is corn, when it should ALWAYS ALWAYS be meat. That these people are corrupting our veterinarians makes me so sad. It makes me sad for the people that are in the profession I am pursuing.

Anyways, eventually, if this diet does work out and your son wants to keep a raw diet, he will decide if he wants to feed BARF, which has a lot of supplements added to the diet and veggies (which aren't necessary but Delta has to have a fruit smoothie because she can't have organs) or prey model, which is 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10% organs. A lot of the vit and minerals come from the organs, and calcium from the bones. This percentage is alotted for a week. It takes a lot of research for a raw diet, but its extremely worth it.

Delta did not have one solid poo since I had gotten her (This was from 8 weeks until about 4 1/2 months) I did a bunch of research and decided raw was best for her. She's had amazing poops since then. The bone helps firm up the poop, so usually dogs need a bit more bone in the beginning than later on.

BTW, for the dog only being a chihuahua... this is going to be a cheap diet! Lol

I really hope your son gets things figured out. He sounds like such a caring daddy for his dog. It's so nice to know that people out there really care.

Good luck!

***Oh, as for the nutritionist... no one is really giving me an answer for where to find nutritionist... I looked up on the internet but it wasn't giving the right information. Although I wasn't on the internet yesterday... so I'll continue searching***

[MonicanHonda]

Here is something someone posted. It may be interesting to look into???

Delta, when Sooner had pancreatitis the vet initially put her on science diet id then put her on royal canine duck prescription. Hated both. But PLEASE have her make sure of diagnosis. Sooner did NOT have pancreatistis even though her numbers were off the chart. After 2 months of treating her for this she was finally diagnosed with lymphoma of the gi tract. This was after she developed lumps and they were biopsied. Further testing indicated lymphoma in 2 major organs, gi tract and skin. Do not always trust the vet, get second opinions please